A technical question - 12th fret and 14th fret to the body

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Oldbones
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A technical question - 12th fret and 14th fret to the body

Postby Oldbones » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:12 pm

Here's a question for Gordon or any other experienced plucker ....

At the moment I'm playing two 12 strings a lot. One has the common body-to-neck join at the 14th fret, the other has the join at the 12th fret. The 14 fretter has a nut-to-bridge length along the 3rd string of 25 5/8". The 12 fretter has a string length of 25 1/2" along the 3rd string. Both guitars are strung with the same gauge strings.

When I switch from on to the other, I FEEL as if the 12 fretter is slightly easier to play but as I can't play both simultaneously, I can't be truly objective.

I did some research and found a website where someone else had wondered about the same thing. This was the response ....

"so what's special about 12 frets? Well, the change in bracing and positioning of the bridge results in a guitar that, in general, feels smoother and richer. It loses some of the treble bite, and the bass thump that a great dreadnought will have (or even that a medium sized guitar has) but gains a midrange that's very attractive to my ears. They seem to play a little easier, too, although I suspect that's just an illusion. They seem to be more resonant, ringing loudly without becoming compressed."

I was interested in that phrase "...I suspect that's just an illusion..."

So - can anyone offer a final, definitive, absolute, objective, scientific, musically irrefutable and irrevocable answer?
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Re: A technical question - 12th fret and 14th fret to the bo

Postby GORDON » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:36 pm

Oldbones wrote:Here's a question for Gordon or any other experienced plucker ....

At the moment I'm playing two 12 strings a lot. One has the common body-to-neck join at the 14th fret, the other has the join at the 12th fret. The 14 fretter has a nut-to-bridge length along the 3rd string of 25 5/8". The 12 fretter has a string length of 25 1/2" along the 3rd string. Both guitars are strung with the same gauge strings.

When I switch from on to the other, I FEEL as if the 12 fretter is slightly easier to play but as I can't play both simultaneously, I can't be truly objective.

I did some research and found a website where someone else had wondered about the same thing. This was the response ....

"so what's special about 12 frets? Well, the change in bracing and positioning of the bridge results in a guitar that, in general, feels smoother and richer. It loses some of the treble bite, and the bass thump that a great dreadnought will have (or even that a medium sized guitar has) but gains a midrange that's very attractive to my ears. They seem to play a little easier, too, although I suspect that's just an illusion. They seem to be more resonant, ringing loudly without becoming compressed."

I was interested in that phrase "...I suspect that's just an illusion..."

So - can anyone offer a final, definitive, absolute, objective, scientific, musically irrefutable and irrevocable answer?


Hello buddy.

I have always favoured 12 frets to the body twelve strings because the pull on the neck and table is far less,also the scale length is shorter making the string tension looser,thus making the whole thing far easier to play.I currently use the Paul Brett model which is truly a joy to play ,the only down side is that being the fussy player that I am I would like the string spacing sorted ,and the fingerboard width isn't being made full use of.

I think I made mention in the past that my JHS signature model was not designed as a 12 string and one has to be very carefully not to put heavy gauge strings on it and for it NOT to be tuned to concert pitch.My first decent 12 string was the Harmony favoured by so many players at the time, and a lovely old beast it was.A 12 fret to the body design with just basic ladder bracing,but my god it sounded great at the time.The great Pete Townsend used one to write many of the Who's hits including of course Substitute.

Hope the above is of use to you sir.

Be well.

G.

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Re: A technical question - 12th fret and 14th fret to the bo

Postby Oldbones » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:28 pm

GORDON wrote:I have always favoured 12 frets to the body twelve strings because the pull on the neck and table is far less,also the scale length is shorter making the string tension looser,thus making the whole thing far easier to play.

Thanks Gordon - that's all really interesting and validates the feeling I have when switching between the 14-fret Crafter and the 12-fret PB12.

GORDON wrote:I currently use the Paul Brett model which is truly a joy to play

I totally agree. As you may recall, I spent a long time trying to decide between the GG12 and the PB12. At that time, another forum member (Brad) and myself exchanged a lot of thoughts. He eventually settled on the GG and has been as happy with it as I am with the PB ... very much a case of 'horses for courses'. Your apparent niggles with the PB have clearly arisen form your own preferences as a professional musician. My niggle about the battery bag is simply a case of finding it damned awkward.

GORDON wrote:my JHS signature model was not designed as a 12 string and one has to be very careful not to put heavy gauge strings on it and for it NOT to be tuned to concert pitch.

Can I ask what gauge strings you fit to the PB12 that you're using? I'm about to restring both my 12s with either Elixir (which I love) or D'Addario which I haven't recently tried.

GORDON wrote:My first decent 12 string was the Harmony favoured by so many players at the time

If I remember right, Bert Weedon played a Harmony when he recorded 'Twelve String Suffle' and 'Color him folky'. As far as I know, although he recorded quite a lot of acoustic guitar pieces, he never again used a 12 string. I bought the sheet music for 'Shuffle' when it first came out (and found that I could actually play it!!!), but it was many years before I found the music for 'Folky' in a collection of Jim Helms' transcriptions for two LP's of 12 string instrumentals which were released in the mid 60's.

'Twelve String Shuffle' really does sound superb on a 12 and loses most of it's power on a 6. There are very few pieces of published music written for 12s - most of those published by Mel Bay or Hal Leonard are little more than collections of folksongs ... very sneaky. You can. of course adapt, improvise and work with such resources, but listening to many recordings on that 'Twelve String Story' CD or those by you when you played a lot of 12 string during your 'Visionary' time, or to Leo Kottke or Dick Rosmini or Fred Gerlach et al, it's clear that there is definitely something 'extra' for some styles of 12 string instrumental or instrumental breaks in songs.

Thanks again for replying, Gordon. It really is wonderful that someone of your experience encourages conversations with less talented mortals who (I suspect) often had their initial enthusiasm for guitars fired by hearing musicians such as yourself, John R, Bert J and (in my case) Bert W ... plus oh so many others.

Peace and respect.
A.
It isn't how fast you can play that counts - it's that you only play as fast as you need to play that is important.
Silence can be as eloquent as sound.

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Re: A technical question - 12th fret and 14th fret to the bo

Postby BRC » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:05 pm

Oldbones,

Just a tuppence worth on the strings.

I have used the D'Addario EJ38 Phosphor Bronze light gauge (.010 -.047) on both my VE2000GG-12 and my Ovation 12 string and very pleased with them. I use the Ovation only occasionally so not easy to make a judgement, though after almost a year still very good. The GG12 is used quite a lot and I last changed the strings in the middle of July last year and definitely need a change now. Mind you, they have had a good deal of use in that intervening period. I may stick with those again.

I use Elixir light Nanoweb (.012 - .053) on both my Martin and Yamaha 6 strings and both are still very bright after nearly 6 months. I bought a set of Elixir Custom Light (.011 -.052) whilst out in Germany last September and was thinking of changing the strings on the Martin but, having just had a quick play, will now delay that as the existing Elixirs are still more than good enough for performance, never mind rehearsals. I know those strings are more expensive, though I only paid the equivalent of around £7.00 out in Germany - almost half the price paid here. That begs a question or two.

Hopefully that is only tuppence worth, except, if you decide to go for Elixir 12 strings please let me (us) know your opinion/comparison with the D'Addario's.

Kind regards
Brad

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Re: A technical question - 12th fret and 14th fret to the bo

Postby Oldbones » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:04 am

Hi again Brad

As a result of what I've bought over the last year or so, or been given as Christmas and birthday presents, I seem to have accumulated several different sets of strings for 12ers I've just got them out and laid them in front of me. There are two complete sets of each. In ascending order of thickness ...

Ernie Ball 'slinkies' (.008 - .040)
D'Addario EJ41 Extra light (.009 - .045)
Elixir light (0.10 - .047).

On the one hand I'm tempted to fit the D'Addarios to one guitar and the Elixirs to the other, but on the other I'm thinking it would be better to fit one type to both guitars.

The Crafter is a full-bodied dreadnought, so could probably cope with any of the above. But the PB12 is just 12 frets to the body, so I'm wondering if extra lights might be just TOO light tension-wise??

Thanks for your own insights and whichever route I take, I'll certainly add an update comment once I've had time to decide what has worked and what hasn't, and what has suited me or not. My free time will be curtailed again in the near future because of us needing to help look after our two grandaughters and also as a result of uncertainty about my wife's treatment(s). I hope to at least restring one of the guitars by the weekend. Also, of course, with the PB12 I want to see what I can do about that damn battery bag, and for the Crafter I want to install the Shadow pickup.

It should all be very interesting.

---------------------------------

On a different subject ... I've recently been posting a few reviews into Amazon and preparing to make a new upload for Youtube. These have caused me to gather together all my various vinyl and CD recordings which feature 12 string guitars or guitarists as well as any books which fall into the same sphere of interest. I'll probably soon start a new thread which lists all that info and which invites other forum members to add their own suggestions.

---------------------------------

Right. Time for coffee #1 for today, so I'm off.
Thanks again for your input.
It isn't how fast you can play that counts - it's that you only play as fast as you need to play that is important.
Silence can be as eloquent as sound.


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